Comments on: God without Religion? A Response http://www.scottcorner.org/2006/god-without-religion/ A Notebook of Ideas and Experiences Tue, 14 Oct 2008 05:45:35 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: James http://www.scottcorner.org/2006/god-without-religion/#comment-103 Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:24:57 +0000 http://www.scottcorner.org/2006/god-without-religion/#comment-103 ShiningStar, to clarify about the "trainwreck" comment: for the first year or so of my questionings about religion, I struggled with a lot of feelings of anger and resentment toward the Mormon church. I think it is natural to feel somewhat cheated when the teachings you believed your whole life now appear to be false according to a new perspective. I wondered at the time if I had been intentionally misguided (which caused more anger). This emotional cycle was difficult to escape, but eventually I was able to lay to rest most of my ill feelings, recognizing that most of the religious teachers I had met were truly sincere in their beliefs, and that in fact most religious practitioners believe their faith to be justified. My ability to lay aside my anger allowed a much clearer view of my situation and the nature of religious belief. Regarding your last question about the nature of God and worship: I too think that it is impossible not to worship, given your definition of worship as "to give our time and thoughts to something". I currently believe that thought and worship are very closely related, though not because our thoughts of God are directed at something outside ourselves. Rather, I believe that our thoughts constitute God--that conscious thought, abstract creativity, which appears to be the domain solely of humankind in our world--this constitutes God. To think is to worship (devote) ourselves to the method of conscious thought. Our ability to think at all, is God itself. If we wish to understand God, we must understand our own minds, our way of thinking, and how it is possible (if at all) to think about your mind when it is your mind that`s doing the thinking. I don`t have a lot of answers. People have pondered these questions for thousands of years; I find insight in reading their words, but most of all, in trying to observe my mind`s workings objectively (again, if such a thing is even possible). I cannot yet conceive of a force outside of my own mind that deserves to be called God. Science, for instance, only exists insofar as its workings can be regularly organized by my rational mind. ShiningStar, to clarify about the "trainwreck" comment: for the first year or so of my questionings about religion, I struggled with a lot of feelings of anger and resentment toward the Mormon church. I think it is natural to feel somewhat cheated when the teachings you believed your whole life now appear to be false according to a new perspective. I wondered at the time if I had been intentionally misguided (which caused more anger). This emotional cycle was difficult to escape, but eventually I was able to lay to rest most of my ill feelings, recognizing that most of the religious teachers I had met were truly sincere in their beliefs, and that in fact most religious practitioners believe their faith to be justified. My ability to lay aside my anger allowed a much clearer view of my situation and the nature of religious belief.

Regarding your last question about the nature of God and worship: I too think that it is impossible not to worship, given your definition of worship as "to give our time and thoughts to something". I currently believe that thought and worship are very closely related, though not because our thoughts of God are directed at something outside ourselves. Rather, I believe that our thoughts constitute God--that conscious thought, abstract creativity, which appears to be the domain solely of humankind in our world--this constitutes God. To think is to worship (devote) ourselves to the method of conscious thought. Our ability to think at all, is God itself. If we wish to understand God, we must understand our own minds, our way of thinking, and how it is possible (if at all) to think about your mind when it is your mind that`s doing the thinking.

I don`t have a lot of answers. People have pondered these questions for thousands of years; I find insight in reading their words, but most of all, in trying to observe my mind`s workings objectively (again, if such a thing is even possible). I cannot yet conceive of a force outside of my own mind that deserves to be called God. Science, for instance, only exists insofar as its workings can be regularly organized by my rational mind.

]]> by: ShiningStar http://www.scottcorner.org/2006/god-without-religion/#comment-86 Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:23:06 +0000 http://www.scottcorner.org/2006/god-without-religion/#comment-86 and yet you quote poems that are sad and hopeless. you explain your thoughts at the time of your leaving your religion as a train wreck. yet at the time was not your purpose clear. your actions specific. now looking back they are a train wreck? was last year also a train wreck of your thoughts. was last month a train wreck of thoughts. how long does a train wreck place havoc on our thoughts? My purpose is by no means to entice you back to religion. in fact just the opposite. i love the journey you are experiencing. opens my eyes to the train wrecks i have avoided in my life and ones i have caused. no the grand adventure of life must be different for each different person. enjoy your journey and the rich rewards it will bring. However i am disappointed that you avoided my last question. i have never had it answered. someone who sees so clearly i would hope could help me. even i who profess religion does not know the answer completely. Who is God. not the God of spirit or God of heaven. If science is our God and we worship at its alter so be it. what are we worshiping. if God is a powerful being in place and time not our own what are we worshiping? worshiping merely means to give our time and thoughts to something. ourselves, others, supreme being. science. since we are always thinking does it not then stand to reason we must always be worshipping? devoting our thoughts. any insights would be greatly appreciated. and yet you quote poems that are sad and hopeless. you explain your thoughts at the time of your leaving your religion as a train wreck. yet at the time was not your purpose clear. your actions specific. now looking back they are a train wreck? was last year also a train wreck of your thoughts. was last month a train wreck of thoughts. how long does a train wreck place havoc on our thoughts? My purpose is by no means to entice you back to religion. in fact just the opposite. i love the journey you are experiencing. opens my eyes to the train wrecks i have avoided in my life and ones i have caused. no the grand adventure of life must be different for each different person. enjoy your journey and the rich rewards it will bring. However i am disappointed that you avoided my last question. i have never had it answered. someone who sees so clearly i would hope could help me. even i who profess religion does not know the answer completely. Who is God. not the God of spirit or God of heaven. If science is our God and we worship at its alter so be it. what are we worshiping. if God is a powerful being in place and time not our own what are we worshiping? worshiping merely means to give our time and thoughts to something. ourselves, others, supreme being. science. since we are always thinking does it not then stand to reason we must always be worshipping? devoting our thoughts. any insights would be greatly appreciated.

]]> by: James http://www.scottcorner.org/2006/god-without-religion/#comment-85 Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:17:46 +0000 http://www.scottcorner.org/2006/god-without-religion/#comment-85 Monique, I had to chuckle as I read your analogy comparing organized religion to a book club. I do respect those who sincerely practice their religion, but have often felt as you do about this singular devotion to a narrow set of religious literature. I am always amazed when people argue that all the basic truths of existence are contained within a set of writings derived from just one culture`s religious tradition. This strikes me as incredibly narrow given the diversity of religious writings (ancient and modern) and the powerful truths taught by literature of all types. Monique, I had to chuckle as I read your analogy comparing organized religion to a book club. I do respect those who sincerely practice their religion, but have often felt as you do about this singular devotion to a narrow set of religious literature. I am always amazed when people argue that all the basic truths of existence are contained within a set of writings derived from just one culture`s religious tradition. This strikes me as incredibly narrow given the diversity of religious writings (ancient and modern) and the powerful truths taught by literature of all types.

]]> by: James http://www.scottcorner.org/2006/god-without-religion/#comment-84 Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:08:38 +0000 http://www.scottcorner.org/2006/god-without-religion/#comment-84 ShiningStar, I appreciate your dissenting opinion regarding religion. I was once a very religious person as well, so I can understand your viewpoint. Your argument about the religion of non-belief is interesting. In a sense I agree with you: my own personal philosophy (religion, if you will) does indeed depend upon much of what scientific discovery has revealed about human origins and motives. Without these "revealed truths" (or theories, anyway) I would be much more inclined toward supernatural explanations of the world. I must disagree about your comment that being confused and lost in regards to religion is depressing. It may be depressing to you, but actually I have found my spiritual path very un-depressing: exactly the opposite in fact! My beliefs about the aloneness of humanity in fact have given me courage to face what might otherwise be overwhelming. Believing that everything depends upon us and our ability to create the world we want to live in imparts a certain optimism. I suppose it all depends upon your point of view. ShiningStar, I appreciate your dissenting opinion regarding religion. I was once a very religious person as well, so I can understand your viewpoint.

Your argument about the religion of non-belief is interesting. In a sense I agree with you: my own personal philosophy (religion, if you will) does indeed depend upon much of what scientific discovery has revealed about human origins and motives. Without these "revealed truths" (or theories, anyway) I would be much more inclined toward supernatural explanations of the world.

I must disagree about your comment that being confused and lost in regards to religion is depressing. It may be depressing to you, but actually I have found my spiritual path very un-depressing: exactly the opposite in fact! My beliefs about the aloneness of humanity in fact have given me courage to face what might otherwise be overwhelming. Believing that everything depends upon us and our ability to create the world we want to live in imparts a certain optimism. I suppose it all depends upon your point of view.

]]> by: ShiningStar http://www.scottcorner.org/2006/god-without-religion/#comment-82 Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:51:51 +0000 http://www.scottcorner.org/2006/god-without-religion/#comment-82 hahahahaaaa. I am very religious and follow a single faith. I love your comments on God and all the possibilities that could ever explain Him or unravel Him. What fascinates me is how confused you all are. You all prefer poems about stumbling around and being lost. How depressing. Also, you denounce God and say religion is for the weak or for the simple or for the mighty. While the whole time you cry that there can be no organized religion for the wise you but profess your religion. How can professing not to believe in a God any less of a religion than believing in one? Religion is defined as the belief in the Supernatural or powers that explain the supernatural and then mans behavior to this power. If you profess then that science explains the supernatural are you not worshiping science and the powers that science explains. Your just not organized about it. So what really needs to happen is an organized church that worships science and defines how man should behave in the presence of the powers that science explains. Oh and one other note. Not once in any of these discussions have I heard the true purpose of God or Christ be they whatever name you choose to call them. Science or Allah or God or whatever other names there are. I am not defined by what I am...but by what I do. hahahahaaaa. I am very religious and follow a single faith. I love your comments on God and all the possibilities that could ever explain Him or unravel Him. What fascinates me is how confused you all are. You all prefer poems about stumbling around and being lost. How depressing. Also, you denounce God and say religion is for the weak or for the simple or for the mighty. While the whole time you cry that there can be no organized religion for the wise you but profess your religion. How can professing not to believe in a God any less of a religion than believing in one? Religion is defined as the belief in the Supernatural or powers that explain the supernatural and then mans behavior to this power. If you profess then that science explains the supernatural are you not worshiping science and the powers that science explains. Your just not organized about it. So what really needs to happen is an organized church that worships science and defines how man should behave in the presence of the powers that science explains. Oh and one other note. Not once in any of these discussions have I heard the true purpose of God or Christ be they whatever name you choose to call them. Science or Allah or God or whatever other names there are. I am not defined by what I am...but by what I do.

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